Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World — a conversation with author Kathryn Hurlock

Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World

An conversation between historian Dr Kathryn Hurlock and Dr Guy Hayward

Kathryn's new book explores how pilgrimage has shaped — and continues to shape — people, power, and place around the world. It is published by Profile Books and is available now in all good bookstores.

From Crusades to Cathedrals: One Historian’s Path to Pilgrimage

Guy Hayward: Let’s begin with you personally. How did you first become interested in pilgrimage? Was there a particular moment of realisation, or was it more of a slow build?

Kathryn Hurlock: I started by researching Crusading, which of course is a militarised form of pilgrimage. What drew me in was how people choose to act — particularly the impact of those actions on home life. I focused initially on the British side of crusading, looking at the “home front” as it were.

From there, it expanded. I began exploring journeys to the Holy Land and shrines closer to home, especially in Wales. Over time, my scope widened to include pilgrimage on a global scale. I thought I’d be building on a vast body of work, especially from a medievalist’s perspective, but found surprisingly little written about certain modern sites. Places like Ratana Pā in New Zealand or the Cenote Sagrado in Mexico — well-known, but barely written about in pilgrimage terms. I followed those threads because the gaps were too interesting to ignore.

Pilgrimage Then and Now: A Living Tradition

Guy Hayward: Pilgrimage is a living tradition, still practised today. That makes it an unusual subject for a historian. Do you see this as a historical study, or are you writing with modern readers in mind?

Kathryn Hurlock: A bit of both. Pilgrimage is often viewed through a medieval lens — going on a long journey and the great routes to Rome, Jerusalem, Santiago. And modern books tend to be personal memoirs: “I walked the Camino,” or “I found myself in Jerusalem.”

What I wanted to do was show the wider context. Pilgrimage is never just a religious experience — it’s also deeply embedded in politics, economics, transport, trade, tourism. The practice both shapes and is shaped by the world around it. You simply can’t separate the worldly from the spiritual. They’re part of the same picture.

Guy Hayward: Yes, separating spiritual and worldly there's no point is there. It's really "all one" as they say.

The Motives of Kingly Power: From Henry II to King Charles III

Guy Hayward: You open your book with a very British example — Henry II’s journey to Pembrokeshire and St David’s Cathedral in Wales to Ireland, and back. Why that story?

Kathryn Hurlock: Because it’s not a conventional pilgrimage. Henry II was travelling for political and military reasons — asserting his authority after the conquest of Ireland. But on his way across Wales, and again on his return, he made a point of visiting St David’s Cathedral, Wales’ most important pilgrimage site.

It shows that pilgrimage isn’t always a dedicated journey. It can be folded into other activities. For Henry, it was a mix of motives: asserting power, giving thanks for safe sea crossings, and seeking religious legitimacy. That example, in just a few days, moves through political, religious, and symbolic territory — a perfect illustration of the complexity of pilgrimage.

Guy Hayward: Our current monarch, King Charles, has also shown a keen interest in pilgrimage places. His last two Christmas broadcasts have featured them quite prominently. Do you think his visits could be understood in the same layered way?

Kathryn Hurlock: It’s a fascinating comparison. Charles is clearly a spiritual man, and he’s deeply attuned to the symbolic power of place. But whether his visits are explicitly pilgrimages, or whether they become pilgrimages through intention, is difficult to say without speaking to him directly — which, alas, is unlikely!

He’s certainly engaging in statecraft — lending the weight of the Crown to particular locations, making them visible, venerating them publicly. But at what point do those journeys become pilgrimages? Is it about the route, the ritual, the intention? Much like Henry II, his journeys operate on multiple levels at once. That ambiguity is precisely what makes the concept of pilgrimage so rich.

Pilgrimage is Resilient Because It’s Adaptable

Guy Hayward: There’s this fascinating tension between intention and function — pilgrimage can serve multiple purposes at once. Your book is structured around places, rather than the actual journeys, and many people think it's the journeys that matter. Others that it doesn't really matter how you get there. Is that what makes it so resilient?

Kathryn Hurlock: I think so. Pilgrimage evolves. People often assume it’s fixed in the past — people on long journeys with staffs. But in truth, it’s flexible, and that’s part of its strength. It can be adapted, reinterpreted, rediscovered.

For instance, many pilgrimage destinations today didn’t exist 200 years ago. Lourdes only became a major site in the mid-19th century. Rātana Pā is a 20th-century phenomenon. Others, like Taishan in China, stretch back millennia. Pilgrimage persists because it keeps reinventing itself.

Sacred Intent in Secular Spaces

Guy Hayward: Some people refer to secular sites like Lenin’s tomb or Eva Perón’s grave as places of pilgrimage. Is that valid?

Kathryn Hurlock: Yes — because it’s about intention. If someone travels with reverence or reflection, even to a political leader’s grave, it can resemble pilgrimage. In Buenos Aires, Eva Perón is venerated in almost saint-like terms. People visit her grave, pray, leave offerings. That mirrors older religious behaviour.

Early Christian saints were often popularised before they were ever officially canonised. Who’s to say secular devotion isn’t just a modern version of the same process? If people are drawn to a site for connection, reflection, or gratitude, it’s hard to argue it doesn’t count.

Pilgrimage's Power to Change the World

Guy Hayward: Your book's title is about how pilgrimage changed the world. What’s your best example of pilgrimage transformation, where it actually changing the world?

Kathryn Hurlock: I’d say Taishan, one of China’s sacred mountains. For centuries, emperors went there on pilgrimage not just as an act of devotion, but to legitimise their rule. Performing certain rituals on Taishan signalled divine approval — a way of saying, “I am fit to govern.”

Not all emperors went at the beginning of their reigns, with lavish displays of wealth. Some waited until they felt they had earned the people’s esteem. Others used it to bolster a shaky claim to power. When pilgrimage is harnessed in this way, it becomes a tool of statecraft.

Even today, we see echoes of this in who controls pilgrimage sites. The Saudis’ control of Mecca is integral to their global influence. The Ottomans did the same. Controlling a site like Mecca isn’t just about religion — it’s about soft power, global standing, even national identity.

Community and Identity at the Heart of Pilgrimage

Guy Hayward: What’s did you find as one of the more surprising or unusual ways pilgrimage has shaped history?

Kathryn Hurlock: I’d highlight the smaller, community-based pilgrimages that are deeply tied to identity, especially for marginalised groups. One example is the pilgrimage to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer in southern France, often called the “Gypsy Pilgrimage”. For the Roma and traveller communities, it’s not just a religious act — it’s one of the few times they’re all in the same place at the same time. They use it to conduct business, arrange marriages, baptise children, and share music — the band the Gypsy Kings actually formed there. So, while it may not have geopolitical impact, it’s enormously significant for a particular group. Pilgrimage, in this sense, creates and sustains community.

Guy Hayward: I saw this at Kumbh Mela, where at Prayagraj a minority of holy men who meet every three, six or twelve years to share experiences and update one another within their aesthic lives.

Pilgrimage as a Remedy for Modern Life

Guy Hayward: Why do you think there’s such a resurgence of interest in pilgrimage today?

Kathryn Hurlock: There are several layers to that. In the early modern period, particularly in Protestant Britain, pilgrimage was frowned upon because it was seen as a Catholic activity. It was driven underground. But in Catholic Europe, and eventually here too, it revived — particularly in the 19th century as railways expanded, people had more leisure time, and religious freedoms increased.

Then, in the 20th century, pilgrimage intersected with new movements — interest in the outdoors, spiritual retreats, health and wellness, such as the Trespass movement to Kinder Scout. The Camino de Santiago was revived in part through EU support, marked as a cultural route with the now-iconic yellow and blue signage. (Interestingly, the yellow came about because a priest had leftover paint!)

In recent decades, people have found that pilgrimage offers something rare — permission to disconnect. If you tell colleagues you’re going on holiday, they might still expect you to check emails. But if you say you’re on pilgrimage, people instinctively respect that boundary. It’s seen as a time apart — for reflection, quiet, purpose. That’s very appealing in a hyper-connected world.

Guy Hayward: Yes, I’ve noticed that. Say the word “pilgrimage” and people seem to soften — they instinctively honour it. They offer you tea, a place to sit, sometimes even a shower and a bed for the night. It triggers something deeper. I love the idea of pilgrimage being a "password" to connect you back to an older way of being that is the opposite of a modern way of living, and an antidote.

There’s No One Way to Make Pilgrimage

Guy Hayward: Is part of your aim to challenge narrow views of what pilgrimage is?

Kathryn Hurlock: Yes — though I’m not prescribing what people should believe or do. I’m simply showing that pilgrimage is far more diverse than most people realise. There’s a tendency to police it — you cheated if you didn’t walk every step, or if you didn’t carry your own pack. But there is no rulebook.

I came across an example of elderly women in Eastern Europe who go on pilgrimage in a minibus. They take a priest with them who prays throughout the journey. They don’t walk — they can’t. But for them, it’s just as meaningful, just as spiritual. Their way of doing it speaks to their faith. We’d all benefit from a bit more openness and less judgement about what counts.

Places That Kathryn Didn't Include — But Shouldn’t Be Forgotten

Guy Hayward: Were there any places you wanted to include in the book but didn’t manage to?

Kathryn Hurlock: Oh, where to start? Mount Athos in Greece, for example — because of its restriction to male pilgrims — but I’d already included Delphi and didn’t want too many Greek examples. Ethiopian Christian sites really fascinated me, but sourcing reliable material was a challenge, as were some caves in Africa.

And then there are some I left out on purpose — like St Winifride’s Well in North Wales. I’ve written a whole other book about that site, and trying to condense 100,000 words into a short chapter felt too painful.

But I tried to include British examples throughout the book, knowing that many of the readers would be from here, and those references help them connect with unfamiliar stories from other countries.

Others I'm interested in are: The Great Mosque at Djenne, Mali; Kulubi in Ethiopia (which has two large pilgrimages a year); Mount Kemukush in Java; Ste Anne de Beaupre in Canada; and Fatima in Portugal.

‍Reviving and Rebuilding Pilgrimage in Britain

Guy Hayward: You mention that Britain’s tradition isn’t as continuous as in other countries. Is that a weakness or an opportunity?

Kathryn Hurlock: I’d say both. In places like India or the Middle East, pilgrimage traditions are much older and uninterrupted. Here, things were disrupted — by the Reformation, by cultural shifts, by modernisation. That makes it harder to trace a straight line through British pilgrimage history.

But it also opens up possibilities.

You have a blank canvas in some places, and that allows for creativity. One example I love is the post-war revival of pilgrimage to Dunwich in Suffolk. The town has largely fallen into the sea, and there’s hardly anything left — just a (very excellent) pub, a street, some scattered houses and some ruins. But two Catholic priests decided to resurrect it as a pilgrimage site in honour of a saint who may never have been there. They held Mass in a garage, in fields — wherever they could. They built something meaningful from almost nothing.

(Dunwich is discussed in Matthew Green's Book Shadowlands.)

Pilgrimage as Party and Healing

Guy Hayward: Where do you see pilgrimage going next?

Kathryn Hurlock: I think it’ll continue evolving — possibly in unexpected ways. You mentioned the idea of music festivals becoming pilgrimage sites. I can see that. Glastonbury, for example, is already close to sacred land, and there’s something undeniably liminal about that experience — shared emotion, disconnection from the ordinary, openness. Pilgrimage is as much about when as it is about where.

Another growth area is health. There’s already a strong tradition of healing pilgrimages — Lourdes is an obvious one, but also places like Holywell in Wales. In the 19th century, there were so many reported cures there that doctors debated whether to investigate it scientifically, much like Lourdes today.

Guy Hayward: So the idea of prescribing pilgrimage as part of mental health or social care — that wouldn’t be new. It would just be a return to an older understanding.

And then there’s local pilgrimage — like Rogation Sunday -- within your parish, visiting the sacred places nearby, reconnecting with the land you live on. It’s a form of grassroots spirituality that brings people together — often with lunch and maybe a bit of dancing afterwards.

Kathryn Hurlock: Absolutely. Historical images show that kind of celebration clearly — it’s as much about community as devotion.

Shared Themes Across the World

Guy Hayward: You’ve written about pilgrimages from Japan to Mexico, China to Argentina. Despite the differences, what connects them all?

Kathryn Hurlock: Two things stand out: First, pilgrimage sites are almost always multifunctional. People don’t just go to pray. They go for healing, to seek justice, to mourn, to celebrate, to help concieve a child. No site is just one thing.

The second is that these sites evolve. Even ones that are relatively recent, like Lourdes or Ratana Pā, have changed dramatically over time. Sacred landscapes are constantly being built, rebuilt, reimagined.

And there’s a third thing, too: the idea of offering. Across cultures, people bring something to leave behind — a token, a prayer, a gift. At Chichén Itzá in Mexico, divers have found thousands of offerings at the bottom of the sacred cenote: carved jade, gold, artefacts. That mirrors what you’d find at a European shrine, yet there was no contact between these traditions. It suggests something deeply human — a shared impulse to give in exchange for grace, healing, or understanding.

Guy Hayward: Yes, I love the idea that the offering is giving and being grateful, given in return for asking.

A Human Need to Make Meaning

Guy Hayward: So, what has writing this book taught you — not just intellectually, but personally?

Kathryn Hurlock: It’s helped me understand the human desire to make meaning — even in places where none was originally intended. Take Iona, for example. St Columba went there to live in isolation, not to found a pilgrimage site. But people wanted to go anyway. They created that meaning. That’s echoed in more modern examples too — like the spontaneous shrine to Dobby the house-elf from Harry Potter on a beach in Wales. People leave socks, letters, candles. It may sound whimsical, but it reveals something deeper — we seek places to express love, grief, gratitude, identity.

Final Thoughts and Where to Find the Book

Guy Hayward: Finally — where can people find your book, and follow your work?

Kathryn Hurlock: Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World is published by Profile Books and available online and in all good bookshops — Waterstones, Blackwell’s, Heffers. I’m on Twitter/X and Instagram at @DrKathrynHurlock, and I’m also on Bluesky. My university email is easy to find if anyone wants to get in touch.

There’s also a book coming soon on St Winifred’s Well in North Wales — it’s an academic work, but still readable, I hope. And I’m exploring a new project on pilgrimage and war, which looks at how pilgrimage is used in conflict and post-conflict societies. Saints like St George and St Michael sit right at the intersection of spirituality and violence — so there’s a lot to unpack there.